Immersion versus Augmentation: the final conflict

Zebediah Godwin (pictured above) hosted a very interesting discussion last night on the theme of "World or Platform? The Reality of SL." The event was quite well attended with a vibrant exchange of views on the subject of "augmentation" versus "immersion" as the primary paradigm for people’s Second Life experience.  It was like being at a cocktail party where everyone was witty and clever and engaged.  One moment we’re talking about fidelity and virtual sex, the next we’re talking about economies of abundance and scarity, and then we’re on to the Platonic cave.

The complete chat log of the event is pasted below, as well as some explanatory notes from Zebediah.

Here’s Zebediah’s contextual remarks on the discussion topic:

Tonight’s discussion was inspired by a series of posts on various Second Life blogs and forums. It began with a post by Akela Talamaska on the Second Life Insider web site.  Akela used the terms "immersionist"  and "augmentationist" to describe what are arguably two extreme ends of a scale of player attitudes towards SL. To quote:

"The Immersionists believe that SL is a complete and discrete world in itself, and should have no truck with anything to do with RL… The Augmentationists view SL as an extension of their RL, more as a tool to be used to interact with others."

So, some points to be used as a springboard for tonight’s discussion:

• Is SL a separate reality from the physical world, or is it "merely" an extension of the real world?
• Are residents the same people that they are in real life, or are do they take on new identities in SL, akin to playing a character in a play?
• What effect does the reality (or unreality) of SL have on the relationships between residents?

Log of "World or Platform? The Reality of Second Life"
Held 9 October 2006, 18:00 – 19:30 (SLT) at the Aztecha Sky Temple (posted with consent of participants)

[18:02]  Farley Scarborough: Zebediah said he’d be back by 6:15–baby emergency–and that we could start without him.
[18:02]  Rik Riel: ok, I’ll start. Augmentationalists suck!
[18:03]  Farley Scarborough: hehe
[18:03]  Rik Riel: hearing no objections, my motion carries
[18:03]  Margoli Market: nice opening 🙂
[18:03]  Farley Scarborough: There’s a note card Zeb gave out. Anyone want a copy? It’s about the topic tonight.
[18:04]  Rik Riel: hi zeb
[18:04]  Zebediah Godwin: Hi folks, I’m back
[18:04]  Rik Riel: how’s the baby?
[18:04]  Farley Scarborough: wb
[18:04]  Zebediah Godwin: Sorry I was late – sick baby (he’ll be OK)
[18:05]  Zebediah Godwin: ANyway, thanks for coming
[18:05]  Zebediah Godwin: The chat recorder should have given you a notecard with the basics of the discussion
[18:06]  Zebediah Godwin: If you haven’t logged in to the chat recorder, please do so – it’s the red thing up front here
[18:06]  Zebediah Godwin: With that, let’s get the discussion started 🙂
[18:07]  Zebediah Godwin: So, I guess the logical place to start is how we all see SL in terms of realtiy
[18:07]  Margoli Market: augmentationist here
[18:07]  Scope Cleaver: Does one really exclude the other?
[18:08]  Hurricane Wind: I’m both depending on the time of day
[18:08]  Zebediah Godwin: I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive
[18:08]  Zebediah Godwin: I’m augmentationist myself, but I don’t have anything against people who want to RP
[18:08]  Scope Cleaver: The other trouble is that the notecard seems to indicate how things are *right* now as opposed to how things will be or the potential of the platform in 20 years lets say.
[18:09]  Zebediah Godwin: Good point, Scope. We can certainly discuss both here.
[18:09]  Sarta Welinder: one could also argue that a discussion like this will almost inherently be weighted toward appealing to augmentationists
[18:09]  Scope Cleaver: By that I mean it’s pretty clear the immersion is getting better every year. ultimately there is no augmentation, it’s fully immersive.
[18:10]  Scope Cleaver: And in the end it’s all going to be a terminological debate.
[18:10]  Zebediah Godwin: True also – the lines between realities do get more blurry
[18:10]  Margoli Market: but it’s called "second" life… does that mean something?
[18:10]  Baba Yamamoto: I’m afraid immersionist will have to deal.. they are a subset
[18:11]  Zebediah Godwin: And I don’t know that it’s *inherently* biased
towards augmentationists, unless immersionists are too immersed to talk about it 🙂
[18:11]  Baba Yamamoto: you can only pretend the outside world does not exist
[18:12]  Wanderer Eberlain: What exactly is an augmentationist? I’ve never heard the term before.
[18:12]  Baba Yamamoto: it’s a fancy word!!!
[18:12]  Zebediah Godwin: I’ve played role-playing games, and even when "immersed", I’ve tended to bouce back to RL on occasion
[18:12]  Scope Cleaver: The problem is that too many people assume the first life is the real one… or the only real on for that matter…
[18:12]  Zebediah Godwin: Just a big word that somebody came up with to describe those who see SL as an addition to RL instead of a separate reality
[18:13]  Wanderer Eberlain: People have done that since the internet
started. What happens on the internet is assumed to stay on the
internet, even if they don’t
[18:13]  Zebediah Godwin: Basically, a hard-core immersionist wants to
keep RL and SL as separate as possible
[18:13]  Zebediah Godwin: SL is a different "world" to them
[18:13]  Wanderer Eberlain: I have internet friends that I’ve known for 10 years. But good luck explaining to someone who doesn’t have friends on the internet like that, just how important they are.
[18:13]  Baba Yamamoto: you can pretend it’s a different world
[18:13]  Scope Cleaver: Ultimately there is no reason to have links to RL provided you live in a fully immersive environment, but it’s obviously not how things stand right now.
[18:14]  Zebediah Godwin: So when does the line between SL and RL start to go aaway?
[18:14]  Baba Yamamoto: that’s a funny way to put it …
[18:14]  Baba Yamamoto: What is RL?
[18:14]  Scope Cleaver: The line will start to go away when RL needs will start to fade thats a technological problem.
[18:14]  Zebediah Godwin: (and my chat recorder just borked – so much for my transcript:( )
[18:14]  Baba Yamamoto: It’s not some thing outside of SL
[18:14]  Baba Yamamoto: it’s everything we do
[18:14]  Sarta Welinder: ahh, good ol’ copy and paste
[18:15]  Wanderer Eberlain: No matter how much you love second life, you won’t be able to get away from the real things. You have to eat, you have to sleep, you have to move around, or you just die.
[18:15]  Zebediah Godwin: I’d tend to agree with you, Baba
[18:15]  Baba Yamamoto: even if you were plugged into a giant supercomputer intarweb
[18:15]  Baba Yamamoto: it would be your real life
[18:15]  Scope Cleaver: *Thats* the terminological issue I was talking about earlier
[18:16]  Zebediah Godwin: Right If you’re *in* the simulation, it is your real world
[18:16]  Scope Cleaver: But that doesn’t matter.
[18:16]  Farley Scarborough: I see the difference counting in some technical ways.
[18:16]  Juliet Zuhrah: But there are people who are married RL but having sex SL; are they cheating?
[18:16]  Scope Cleaver: Humm.
[18:16]  Baba Yamamoto: that’s up to you to decide Juliet
[18:16]  Wanderer Eberlain: According to my husband, yes.
[18:16]  Soen Eber: ten years ago the virtual world was 2D graphics and web pages with sucky backgrounds. For my mom it was TV. For GrandDad it was movies. If we see virtuosity as "reality" it is only because we are temporarily enamoured by it.
[18:17]  Juliet Zuhrah: Yes, I know that it is for me to decide. I just wonder how everyone else views it.
[18:17]  Zebediah Godwin: The relationships do get complicated, don’t they?
[18:17]  Baba Yamamoto: movies are temporary and directed constructs
[18:17]  Wanderer Eberlain: 10 years ago there was a 3D chat room that’s still up and running today. But there was no economy to it. It was just walking and talking and making things
[18:18]  Farley Scarborough: I hear educators and business people wanting to carry RL identites into SL… real names, using voice instead of text… that’s where the two views can collide.
[18:18]  Juliet Zuhrah: And emotions are internally created whether with avatar or RL human…
[18:18]  Zebediah Godwin: That’s another interesting aspect to me – how much are we our avatars?
[18:19]  Wanderer Eberlain: Not at all
[18:19]  Baba Yamamoto: I am 100% me
[18:19]  Scope Cleaver: So Truman in Turman Show was he an immersionist or agumentationist?
[18:19]  Juliet Zuhrah: I’m with Baba.
[18:19]  Zebediah Godwin: Personally, I try to be as much "me" as possible
[18:19]  Wanderer Eberlain: The me that’s here in second life isn’t me at all
[18:19]  Baba Yamamoto: how can you be anything else? if you’re role playing that’s just you roleplaying
[18:19]  Juliet Zuhrah: Except my lips are fuller here… 😉
[18:19]  Scope Cleaver: lol
[18:19]  Zebediah Godwin: My avatar even looks sort of like me (well, except for the wings)
[18:20]  Wanderer Eberlain: lol, yes… my tummy’s flatter here, there’s no cesarean scar… my avatar’s supposedly 6 feet tall!
[18:20]  Zebediah Godwin: And we can ch
ange the way we look here
[18:20]  Zebediah Godwin: In a way, our appearance here may say more about our personalities than our RL appearance, because we chose it
[18:21]  Baba Yamamoto: I look like a little girl with a blad head
[18:21]  Hurricane Wind: but doesn’t it come down more to what we want to do here than the way we look?
[18:21]  Scope Cleaver: But we’re digressing…
[18:21]  Zebediah Godwin: Oh, absolutely
[18:21]  Baba Yamamoto: ahaha
[18:21]  Wanderer Eberlain: Everyone role plays on the internet, in some way.
[18:21]  Wanderer Eberlain: Because who we are isn’t entirely things
that we express
[18:21]  Baba Yamamoto: i dont roleplay hah
[18:21]  Hurricane Wind: everyone rolepalys in RL
[18:22]  Wanderer Eberlain: That is, there’s some separation even if you aren’t trying.
[18:22]  Hurricane Wind: you can just get away with diverser roles on internet
[18:22]  Zebediah Godwin: We have different aspects that we present to people in RL
[18:22]  Juliet Zuhrah: Yes; But didn’t Oscar Wilde say something like "Give me a mask and I’ll show you the truth?"
[18:22]  Zebediah Godwin: I present a different side of myself at work than I do at home with my family
[18:23]  Zebediah Godwin: So is presenting different aspects of yourself in SL and RL different?
[18:23]  Sarta Welinder: "Man is least himself when he talks in his own
person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. "
[18:23]  Scope Cleaver: Are you "agmented" at work Zebe? lol
[18:23]  Wanderer Eberlain: The internet is just another one of those role patterns
[18:23]  Baba Yamamoto: is your work persona a mask? or your home persona?
[18:23]  Hurricane Wind: sure, however the imm/aug discussion is about what we want to do her, do we want to escape from our lives RL, or expand our RL
[18:23]  Juliet Zuhrah: Thank you, Sarta. I got it via Velvet Goldmine.
[18:23]  Farley Scarborough: Nice quote, Juliet. And that’s the other
side. Some people are able to be more themselves in SL than in RL.
[18:23]  Zebediah Godwin: They’re both real, in the different environments
[18:24]  Delia Lake: are you ever without a persona? as an adult anyway?
[18:24]  Wanderer Eberlain: Even as a child there are personas..
[18:24]  Zebediah Godwin: Good question. Maybe when you’re alone?
[18:24]  Zebediah Godwin: Or are you playing "yourself" to yourself?
[18:24]  Juliet Zuhrah: No. I’m very tough and witty when I’m alone.
[18:24]  Baba Yamamoto: you may want to escape your real life and you enter this simulated world or some other for that purpose, but is it really escaping or just doing something different for a time?
[18:24]  Friendly Story: lol
[18:24]  Farley Scarborough: hehe
[18:25]  Sushma Sixgallery: I am me everywhere, RL and SL, except here I’m not dying of cancer and it’s good for my soul
[18:25]  Hurricane Wind: or is it just anpother medium
[18:25]  Sushma Sixgallery: It is hope, perhaps?
[18:25]  Zebediah Godwin: I have talked to people with serious physical handicaps who say they don’t feel as disadvantaged here
[18:26]  Friendly Story: well here we can all fly
[18:26]  Juliet Zuhrah: Oh, Sushma. It’s relief, maybe.
[18:26]  Wanderer Eberlain: When I tell people in real life about second life, I usually describe it as "another world"
[18:26]  Zebediah Godwin: As for me, I don’t stutter here. But I don’t misspell when speaking in RL 🙂
[18:26]  Sushma Sixgallery: i thought about that, it would seem we can be like everyone else we admire
[18:26]  Baba Yamamoto: we’re all limited to a few keys and a mouse…
[18:26]  Juliet Zuhrah: Do you think when voice chat becomes more widely available, something will be lost?
[18:27]  Rik Riel: good qestion
[18:27]  Friendly Story: yes
[18:27]  Zebediah Godwin: I don’t know. Maybe.
[18:27]  Wanderer Eberlain: Yes and no
[18:27]  Wanderer Eberlain: Personally, I like text because it’s completely apart from voice or face
[18:27]  Baba Yamamoto: voice chats do not work between 30 people all talking at once
[18:27]  Rik Riel: voice can add another layer of interpretation and meta- content to discussions
[18:27]  Zebediah Godwin: Right now, I’m as good a speaker as my typing allows. And I type pretty well.
[18:27]  Hurricane Wind: it is already possible to áugment’ your voice
[18:27]  Sushma Sixgallery: it would facilitate emotions?
[18:27]  Wanderer Eberlain: I don’t mind listening to other people talk, but I’d rather talk to them with text.
[18:27]  Baba Yamamoto: we could not have this conersation in voice without a moderation system
[18:27]  Sushma Sixgallery: true Baba
[18:28]  Baba Yamamoto: there are too many people all talking at once
[18:28]  Wanderer Eberlain: But yes, it certainly does make understand people easier when you can hear their sarcasm instead of just reading it and wondering what they meant
[18:28]  Zebediah Godwin: There’s no way I could keep track of all of this in a voice chat 🙂
[18:28]  Juliet Zuhrah: And a man couldn’t be a woman, or an old person
a young person.
[18:28]  Wanderer Eberlain: It’s nice to have the history
[18:28]  Sarta Welinder: sure we could — I’m from a big Italian family  – this is a small gathering — you just get good at picking out different threads.
[18:28]  Juliet Zuhrah: Or a human a wolf…
[18:28]  Baba Yamamoto: a good text chat will mash up the basics of an idea faster than voice
[18:28]  Rik Riel: a man could certainly be a woman, with a voice mask
[18:28]  Juliet Zuhrah: True.
[18:28]  Scope Cleaver: I think I lost the topic…
[18:29]  Sushma Sixgallery: How about this, folks, we don’t have to bathe 🙂
[18:29]  Rik Riel: does voice add or take away from your SL experience?
[18:29]  Zebediah Godwin: Topic: Reality, and is SL a part of it or apart from it? 🙂
[18:29]  Delia Lake: neither do we have to stop to eat
[18:29]  Baba Yamamoto: it adds
[18:29]  Wanderer Eberlain: lol, anyone feel like they’re stinky if they don’t change their second life clothes in a few days?
[18:29]  Baba Yamamoto: it has its purposes
[18:29]  Delia Lake: yes
[18:29]  Scope Cleaver: RIght now it adds.
[18:30]  Baba Yamamoto: it doesnt take the place of caht
[18:30]  Baba Yamamoto: chat
[18:30]  Sushma Sixgallery: SL is a second dimension of RL
[18:30]  Sushma Sixgallery: an alternate pathway
[18:30]  Zebediah Godwin: To me, yes, SL is an extension of RL
[18:30]  Scope Cleaver: I can’t think of anything in fact thats separate from RL right now beside maybe deep coma…
[18:30]  Wanderer Eberlain: Here we can fly and we don’t need to sleep until our real bodies demand it
[18:30]  Baba Yamamoto: Muahahaha
[18:30]  Zebediah Godwin: But there are still real people with real needs and real feelings behind each avatar
[18:30]  Rik Riel: I have no interest in escaping my RL
[18:31]  Wanderer Eberlain: My RL wouldn’t let me escape it
[18:31]  Juliet Zuhrah: Yet I always put my avie to bed before I
leave…
[18:31]  Delia Lake: do things that we learn, about ourselves or about others, or just information transfer from SL into RL?
[18:31]  Zebediah Godwin: I’m not quite sure what you mean, Delia
[18:32]  Sarta Welinder: of course it does — everything that we learn via any medium translates to RL knowledge
[18:32]  Sarta Welinder: it just
may not have application outside the medium in which it was learned
[18:32]  Delia Lake: well, if you put youreslf in a situation in sl that you have never experienced in rl, does what you learn about youreslf, your actions and responses, inform your rl self?
[18:32]  Wanderer Eberlain: Something has to store the knowledge we use in the game
[18:33]  Zebediah Godwin: I think so, yes, Delia
[18:33]  Hurricane Wind: but what is the purpose of our second life, is it to forget our first life or is it to add to it in some way?
[18:33]  Sushma Sixgallery: both in my case
[18:33]  Rik Riel: Is there anyone here would count themselves among the "immersionist" camp?
[18:33]  Hurricane Wind: mine too sushma
[18:33]  Sushma Sixgallery: define immersionist
[18:33]  Scope Cleaver: I do, long term definately.
[18:34]  Zebediah Godwin: My SL self and my Rl self share a brain, and a personality. So I’d say they are pretty much the same
[18:34]  Juliet Zuhrah: I think I’m too lazy to be an immersionist.
[18:34]  Sushma Sixgallery: lol at Juliet
[18:34]  Rik Riel: as in, come to SL as a form of escape, a way to escape from RL
[18:34]  Wanderer Eberlain: Yeah, I don’t think there’s really much difference between immersionists and augmentationists
[18:34]  Scope Cleaver: Escape?
[18:34]  Juliet Zuhrah: I have enough trouble remembering things RL.
[18:34]  Sera Lok: i consider myself an escapist. but i still talk about my rl.
[18:34]  Sarta Welinder: how many immersionists build or script?
[18:35]  Zebediah Godwin: So do you think immersionists want to be different people in SL than they are in RL?
[18:35]  Hurricane Wind: I do think that imm aand augs are on differerent bits of a scale
[18:35]  Sera Lok: i don’t want to be a different person. i want to be in a different environment.
[18:35]  Zebediah Godwin: I mean, it’s fun to step outside yourself once in a while
[18:36]  Scope Cleaver: Your indendity in a simulation is always informed by it’s environment, laws and boundaries.
[18:36]  Sera Lok: i want to escape the things and situations around
myself
[18:36]  Sushma Sixgallery: that’s deel, Scope
[18:36]  Sushma Sixgallery: deep
[18:36]  Juliet Zuhrah: Yes, and really, I’m not sex obsessed, but how many people will just go home with a stranger in SL but would never consider it RL?
[18:37]  Wanderer Eberlain: The sexual freeness of the internet has been
luring people since it was created
[18:37]  Sushma Sixgallery: ‘stays in Vegas’ philosophy?
[18:37]  Rik Riel: I consider that cheating
[18:37]  Wanderer Eberlain: I’m new to second life, but I’ve been
chatting for many many years.
[18:37]  Sarta Welinder: the illusion of "no complications"
[18:37]  Friendly Story: I don’t go home with strangers but when they pop into my home in sl, I always welcome them, in rl I would be like what the heck?
[18:37]  Sushma Sixgallery: there is no satisfaction in simulated sex
[18:37]  Juliet Zuhrah: Yes, and you can always disappear if things get
scary.
[18:37]  Zebediah Godwin: And it’s funny – some people seem to consider Internet relationships "not real"
[18:38]  Wanderer Eberlain: Some people get satisfaction from sex on the internet
[18:38]  Rik Riel: Susma, you are clearly not doing it right
[18:38]  Sushma Sixgallery: oh! lol
[18:38]  Sarta Welinder: it goes beyond that – there’s an entire psychotic belief that others in game are mere concepts rather than real people.
[18:38]  Friendly Story: lol
[18:38]  Juliet Zuhrah: Yes, I’ve stumbled into people’s spaces and they’ve been very gracious.
[18:38]  Zebediah Godwin: Maybe the sex is a fantasy, but the emotions are the same
[18:39]  Zebediah Godwin: That’s something I’ve thought about myself,
Sarta – people don’t see other avatars as real people sometimes
[18:39]  Wanderer Eberlain: Well.. there can be detachment from sex and emotion even if there’s no internet bridge
[18:39]  Rik Riel: my GF doesn’t have a problem with me sleeping around in SL. As long as she can watch.
[18:39]  Wanderer Eberlain: A prostitute doesn’t fall in love with every customer
[18:39]  Sera Lok: humans don’t see others as human also
[18:40]  Sarta Welinder: which is considered a psychotic mindset
[18:40]  Juliet Zuhrah: Really, Rik? That’s interesting.
[18:40]  Farley Scarborough: I’d say I lean toward the immersionist side. Not because I want to escape anything, but because I find discussions like this refreshing, not listening to people talk, not having to use my voice.
[18:40]  Zebediah Godwin: And that, right there, is the problem with most of the world. People deny the humanity of other people.
[18:40]  Wanderer Eberlain: psychosis is a disconnection from reality. But that brings us back to our question here. What is reality? And second reality
[18:41]  Scope Cleaver: We’re have good reason to think we might never get at what is reality
[18:41]  Zebediah Godwin: Well, there’s an interesting concept of "reality" that Bruce Sterling put into my head a few years back
[18:41]  buridan Simon: /it is more that people deny the equality or similarity of other people than their humanity… people see differences in humanity instead of similarities
[18:41]  Scope Cleaver: The thing that when you wake up is still there?
[18:41]  Wanderer Eberlain: I wonder if I can find the article I read about rape on the internet.
[18:41]  Sera Lok: the whole definition of reality is still questionable
[18:41]  Zebediah Godwin: For example: If you’re in Ann Arbor, and you’re on the phone with your mother in Novosibersk, where is the conversation taking place?
[18:42]  Baba Yamamoto: not using voice is not leaning to immersionist..
it’s just a preference
[18:42]  Sera Lok: where do we end and others start?
[18:42]  Zebediah Godwin: Not, in Michigan, or Siberia, but a mental space that you BOTH inhabit and share
[18:42]  buridan Simon: /of course there is a huge traditionl of ethics going back to the greeks that most people don’t pay any attention to either, cosmopolitan and/or stoic ethics, which demands that we first treat people as equals
[18:42]  Scope Cleaver: Cyberspace.
[18:42]  Rik Riel: good point, zeb
[18:42]  Baba Yamamoto: that’s my definition of hte metaverse Zebediah
[18:42]  Juliet Zuhrah: Well, maybe William James would accept that the conversation occurs in each conversant’s mind….and is different to each.
[18:42]  Wanderer Eberlain: Wow, I’d never thought about that.. with the phone lines
[18:43]  Zebediah Godwin: Sl can be seen as just such a mental construct
[18:43]  Baba Yamamoto: a shared space
[18:43]  Sarta Welinder: I think the events of yesterday demonstrated that this is not a purely mental construct
[18:43]  Scope Cleaver: Good point Sarta
[18:43]  Juliet Zuhrah: Since humans cannot hope to grasp "reality’, simply perception.
[18:43]  Sushma Sixgallery: well, physics would deem that the conversation was tied to both places via energy particles
[18:43]  Zebediah Godwin: We’re all "here", even though we’re in different places physically
[18:43]  Rik Riel: governments require that actions take place within certain boundaries. It’s in crime and law that place becomes important.
[18:44]  Baba Yamamoto: we all have our own perception of what "here is"
[18:44]  Hurricane Wind: a conversation does not occupy space
[18:44]  Baba Yamamoto: a conversation does occup
y space
[18:44]  Sera Lok: waves
[18:44]  Baba Yamamoto: Muahahaha
[18:44]  Delia Lake: yet, a conversation can open a space for things to happen
[18:44]  Juliet Zuhrah: afk
[18:44]  Sushma Sixgallery: how does the gov’t charge people with internet crimes?
[18:45]  Baba Yamamoto: by making up laws
[18:45]  Baba Yamamoto: and then raiding your house
[18:45]  Sarta Welinder: completely depends on where the crime is reputed to take place
[18:45]  buridan Simon: actually ethographically in the maussian tradition, conversation occupies place
[18:45]  Zebediah Godwin: The Internet has certainly put a monkey wrench into some aspects of law enforcement
[18:45]  Zebediah Godwin: Someone in Malaysia can no defraud me more easily than the guy next door
[18:45]  Zebediah Godwin: can NOW defraud me 🙂
[18:46]  Sarta Welinder: off-shore gambling is considered to happen wherever the server is located, but if gambling is not allowed in a particular state, then the off-shore gambling site can be charged with faccilitating a resident of that state in the committing of a crime
[18:46]  Sarta Welinder: in which case, the crime occurs within that residents state
[18:46]  Zebediah Godwin: It may be that the legal concept of "space" needs some updating.
[18:46]  Sushma Sixgallery: so, virtual universes create a new problem for law enforcement
[18:47]  Sarta Welinder: always has
[18:47]  Sera Lok: our whole way of living needs updating 🙂 imo
[18:47]  Sarta Welinder: its why the feds get involved in cross-state crimes
[18:47]  Sushma Sixgallery: what do you think of the Linden "police blotter"?
[18:47]  Zebediah Godwin: Right. Who is the government here? (topic for another of these discussions)
[18:47]  Sera Lok: blotter seems to be misleading and sometimes meaningless
[18:47]  buridan Simon: what do you mean by government?
[18:47]  Friendly Story: I read it even though it’s not to infomative
[18:48]  Sushma Sixgallery: we as sensationalists want to see NAMES!
[18:48]  buridan Simon: the blotter is a symbolic tool that lets users know that ll is actively doing things
[18:48]  Hurricane Wind: My real self is starting to fall asleep, not due to the conversations here, but due to the time there (holland). Thank you all for a great discussion, goodnight.
[18:48]  Zebediah Godwin: Also a good question, buridan. Government means sifferent things to different people
[18:48]  Friendly Story: lol true
[18:48]  Sarta Welinder: take care Hurricane
[18:48]  Zebediah Godwin: Thanks for coming, Hurricane!
[18:48]  buridan Simon: that is all that it needs to be
[18:48]  Sushma Sixgallery: good night hurricane
[18:48]  Sushma Sixgallery: so, what was the original question?
[18:49]  Sarta Welinder: frankly I’m interested in the stance of immersionists on building and scripting
[18:49]  Wanderer Eberlain: Immersionists have kitchens and bathrooms in their houses. hehehe
[18:49]  Sushma Sixgallery: in what manner, Sarta?
[18:49]  buridan Simon: there are immersionists?
[18:49]  Zebediah Godwin: Original question? What’s real and what isn’t? 🙂
[18:49]  Sarta Welinder: does building and scripting detract from immersion?
[18:49]  Rik Riel: immersionists take baths not showers
[18:49]  Sushma Sixgallery: i know of one here a friend
[18:50]  Zebediah Godwin: (bad pun. bad! bad!)
[18:50]  Sushma Sixgallery: Rik, you are ‘profiling’ 🙂
[18:50]  Zebediah Godwin: 🙂
[18:50]  Wanderer Eberlain: Personally, I think building and scripting adds to the immersion. If you can script it, you can make things do amazing things.
[18:50]  Wanderer Eberlain: It’s the lifeblood of the world here
[18:51]  Sarta Welinder: right, but is the act of scripting within the paradigm or outside it?
[18:51]  Sushma Sixgallery: it’s like the difference between a house and a home
[18:51]  Zebediah Godwin: Actually, it’s something that a friend brought up elsewhere. We don’t need buildings, or clothes, really, in SL – no environment to protect ourselves from
[18:51]  Zebediah Godwin: So why do we build here?
[18:51]  Sushma Sixgallery: artistic intent
[18:51]  Ezekiel Castro: or maybe more of a desire to create that which we cannot have in 1st life
[18:51]  Zebediah Godwin: For me, I can create the dream house that I’ll never afford in RL
[18:52]  Rik Riel: I’m an immersionist in the sense that I want to feel like I’ve "been somewhere" when I come to a sim
[18:52]  Delia Lake: i think there is quite a difference between house and home
[18:52]  Sushma Sixgallery: funny, i have a house in RL and no desire to build here!
[18:52]  Friendly Story: humm I think I have my home more as a reflection of who I am, the person
[18:52]  Zebediah Godwin: Which might be immersing myself ever so slightly. 🙂 I’m not an extremist
[18:52]  Rik Riel: I want to submerge myself in the illusion
[18:52]  buridan Simon: the question there, is why do you have a dreamhouse that you cannot own in real life
[18:52]  Delia Lake: i’ve lived in houses that i never really considered a home
[18:52]  Zebediah Godwin: I do have a house in RL
[18:52]  buridan Simon: where is the origin of those desires
[18:52]  Zebediah Godwin: And it’s my home
[18:52]  Juliet Zuhrah: It’s funny, but RL i am completely uninterested in owning a home, but boy I ran and got First Land!
[18:53]  Sushma Sixgallery: Hey!
[18:53]  Scope Cleaver: Haha Juliet
[18:53]  Rik Riel: interesting, Juliet
[18:53]  Zebediah Godwin: But the "dream house" – it’s physically possible but economically impossible
[18:53]  Delia Lake: and, some that i was really attatched to in rl
[18:53]  Ezekiel Castro: so are we just replicating RL here in SL?
[18:53]  Wanderer Eberlain: My husband works construction for a living. All day he’s building and crafting. I sit at home and care for home and hearth, but on here I also build and craft.
[18:53]  Scope Cleaver: Well I would’nt have the house I have in SL even If I could economically have it in RL interestingly enough
[18:54]  Wanderer Eberlain: I suggested to a friend that my husband and I were doing similar things with our time, just in different ways, and he laughed at me
[18:54]  Friendly Story: no, neither would I, mine are all made of glass lol
[18:54]  Sarta Welinder: I’d have trouble maintaining my rl home at 650 meters up with no support
[18:54]  Wanderer Eberlain: Because what my husband does is real and physical and what I do is on a computer in what to him is an imaginary world
[18:54]  Delia Lake: in sl, i have a decorated gazebo that in many ways feels like home too
[18:54]  Ezekiel Castro: same model of consumption here and in RL
[18:54]  Zebediah Godwin: It took a while to convince my dad, the mechanical engineer, that computer programmers "build" things 🙂
[18:54]  Scope Cleaver: I have trouble with saying either of them is more "reaL* than the toher Wanderer.
[18:54]  Wanderer Eberlain: When I talked to my husband about it, though, he agreed with me that we were doing the same thing. I just did mine technically.
[18:54]  Zebediah Godwin: He gets it now. But it took some time
[18:54]  Rik Riel: Julian Dibbell has a great story about a construction worker who at night builds his castle in Everquest
[18:55]  Rik Riel: In the book "Play Money"
[18:55]  Ezekiel Castro: when i first started coming to sl i thought i wol
d experience an entirely new model of human interaction, instead it feels alot like rl, in that it’s all about obtaining stuff
[18:55]  Wanderer Eberlain: Well, "real" from our friend’s perspective
[18:55]  Zebediah Godwin: Even if the "stuff" is just made of bits
[18:56]  Zebediah Godwin: The one who dies with the most bits wins
[18:56]  Wanderer Eberlain: He doesn’t see anything on the internet as "real" because it isn’t his reality
[18:56]  Rik Riel: Ezekial, none of the residents I hang out with are like that
[18:56]  Rik Riel: or in RL, actually
[18:56]  Scope Cleaver: Right thats more like it
[18:56]  Pebbles Hannya: I don’t think it is the same model of consumption Ezikiel — there are none of the practical concerns. Nothing gets dirty, broken, blown over…
[18:56]  Ezekiel Castro: maybe so rik, but the entire model is set up the same
[18:56]  Delia Lake: not so much for the people in sl that i see most often. we are exploring things in sl to make the rl a better place
[18:56]  Juliet Zuhrah: and lots of free stuff…
[18:56]  Sarta Welinder: Plato wouldn’t have any problems with it —
after all, an ideal chair cannot exist in reality.
[18:57]  Ezekiel Castro: i don’t hang out with those people in rl, but it doesn’t mean that i live outside of the structure
[18:57]  buridan Simon: the difference is that there is ‘no need’ or ‘no necessity’ to buy
[18:57]  Zebediah Godwin: Plato would probably recognize SL as his cave.
[18:57]  Ezekiel Castro: but still, simon, we buy, why?
[18:57]  Rik Riel: I’ve found residents to be incredibly generous and kind
[18:57]  Scope Cleaver: Has anyone’s consumptions habbit changed in RL as a result of SL?
[18:57]  Rik Riel: But then I live in New York, so anyone who isn’t a jerk is surprising
[18:57]  Sarta Welinder: not at all, merely another lightsource on the wall
[18:57]  buridan Simon: i actually dont’ buy much anymore
[18:57]  Juliet Zuhrah: Yes. The residents are generous and patients.
[18:57]  Wanderer Eberlain: Well, I eat less…
[18:58]  Scope Cleaver: I don’t agree Zebe, actually think th oposite
[18:58]  buridan Simon: I live in ny and i’ve yet to meet a jerk
[18:58]  Wanderer Eberlain: lol, but I don’t think that’s what you meant, Scope
[18:58]  Scope Cleaver: I think RL is the cave…
[18:58]  Rik Riel: Buridan, I’m kidding
[18:58]  buridan Simon: well, perhaps a guy at the bank…. but eh
[18:58]  Sarta Welinder: one’s perception of reality is the cave
[18:58]  Scope Cleaver: And this is barely a foggy window on which we have no clue whats on the other side yet
[18:58]  Juliet Zuhrah: Scope, so are avies the shadows?
[18:59]  Scope Cleaver: The stage is RL
[18:59]  Scope Cleaver: SL is a bridge to outside..
[18:59]  buridan Simon: if you are doing the line and the caave, you need a bit more…
[18:59]  Wanderer Eberlain: This is as much a stage as anywhere else
[18:59]  Sarta Welinder: that I’ll definitely agree with Wanderer
[19:00]  Scope Cleaver: Well thats what is at issue
[19:00]  Sushma Sixgallery: How many here act the fool in SL but wouldn’t do so IRL?
[19:00]  Ezekiel Castro: but with the open canvas that is SL, why did we choose to develop it along the same models as RL, obviously it is far from a came
[19:00]  Ezekiel Castro: cave
[19:00]  Wanderer Eberlain: SL is a holodeck
[19:00]  Scope Cleaver: I said RL was a cave, not SL
[19:00]  Sarta Welinder: not everyone did choose to develop it along the
same models
[19:00]  Sarta Welinder: SL has trends and fads
[19:00]  Wanderer Eberlain: It’s just still not us physically
[19:00]  Zebediah Godwin: So that gets back to our online personas. Are we characters, or more or less so than in RL?
[19:00]  Sarta Welinder: they come and go
[19:01]  Sarta Welinder: as many can attest when tinies were all the rage
[19:01]  Sushma Sixgallery: what are tinies?
[19:01]  Ezekiel Castro: but is the problem here that we are all functioning under the creation of linden? hence the real vision of our SL lives is not our own
[19:01]  Delia Lake: although some of the builds are different, i have noticed that people bring their biases and opinions from rl into sl
[19:01]  Juliet Zuhrah: I’m so sad I even picked hair that was similar to my RL hair. I mean, what is that?
[19:01]  buridan Simon: everyone is personae anyway… some people try to construct tropes and fixations to allow themselves to claim authenticities, but really… it rarely works as well as they think
[19:01]  Zebediah Godwin: Maybe you like your RL hair?
[19:01]  Juliet Zuhrah: Why can some of us have wings, but some of us go for realism.
[19:02]  Scope Cleaver: But I think Zebe’s question goes beyond just SL
[19:02]  Sushma Sixgallery: maybe it says a lot about how you feel about
your RL, Juliet
[19:02]  Ezekiel Castro: why didn’t we all choose to live naked in caves or to look like sarta over there?
[19:02]  Wanderer Eberlain: There are nudists here..
[19:02]  Scope Cleaver: Because we’re different?
[19:02]  buridan Simon: there were not enough caves
[19:02]  Juliet Zuhrah: Yeah, Sarta is kinda freaking me out… 😉
[19:03]  Friendly Story: lol
[19:03]  Wanderer Eberlain: I think it’s cool. lol
[19:03]  Ezekiel Castro: develop a barter system, hunter gatherer, different model of utopia altogether?
[19:03]  Zebediah Godwin: For that matter, since we can fly here, is it more "realistic" to have wings or not to have them?
[19:03]  Sushma Sixgallery: again…what are ‘tinies’?
[19:03]  Juliet Zuhrah: But we’re not allowed to roam the streets naked, are we? We have the standards to follow.
[19:03]  Delia Lake: Sarta, are you the blue outline? i can’t see you very well from here
[19:03]  Wanderer Eberlain: They’re little tiny avatars
[19:03]  Friendly Story: good point about the wings
[19:03]  Wanderer Eberlain: Usually animals
[19:03]  Sarta Welinder: heh, yes
[19:04]  Delia Lake: 🙂
[19:04]  Friendly Story: child-like avatars
[19:04]  Sarta Welinder: and here’s a tiny
[19:04]  Zebediah Godwin: That’s why I wear these wings – I can fly here, so I thought it would be fun to have wings. 🙂
[19:04]  Ezekiel Castro: there are people in oregon living in trees that are living more progressive, thoughtful, unique lives than anything i can imagine to create in sl
[19:04]  Juliet Zuhrah: And vehicles. I do notice a dearth of vehicles which makes sense because of flying and teleportation.
[19:04]  Sushma Sixgallery: cute little things
[19:04]  Sushma Sixgallery: thx
[19:04]  Scope Cleaver: How so Ezekiel?
[19:05]  Ezekiel Castro: yeah i can look cool, but how am i changing the very essence of my being?
[19:05]  Sushma Sixgallery: And NO CELL PHONES!
[19:05]  Friendly Story: I love the "no cell phnes" persoanlly lol
[19:05]  Scope Cleaver: You can life in trees here you know.
[19:05]  Friendly Story: typos uggh
[19:05]  Sarta Welinder: who needs them with im’s?
[19:05]  Zebediah Godwin: We have IMs instead
[19:05]  Pebbles Hannya: Actually, I’ve seen cell phones here, but I’m not sure what the point of them is.
[19:06]  Juliet Zuhrah: Yes, and unacknowledged IMs can be just as annoying as cell phones
[19:06]  Zebediah Godwin: Well, that’s kind of the point – what’s the point to ANYTHING here?
[19:06]  Sushma S
ixgallery: comfot, perhaps?
[19:06]  Sushma Sixgallery: comfort
[19:06]  Friendly Story: familiarity
[19:06]  Delia Lake: this week, a company named vivox started a service where avies can make phone calls from sl into rl
[19:06]  Juliet Zuhrah: How many time do you get the feeling that someone is IMing while they’re talking to you?
[19:06]  Ezekiel Castro: i guess it brings me to my same question i keep coming back to. if we are to live a second life why not radically model it differently
[19:07]  Sushma Sixgallery: really? do you have a link to that?
[19:07]  Friendly Story: yeah milliion minutes
[19:07]  Sushma Sixgallery: weekends free?
[19:07]  Sarta Welinder: because the vast majority of players want nothing more than a fancy chat room where they can look pretty and dance
[19:07]  Friendly Story: first million minutes is free
[19:07]  Delia Lake: different in what kinds of ways, Ezekiel?
[19:07]  Wanderer Eberlain: How people these people who have babies here in SL?
[19:07]  Ezekiel Castro: not a capitalist model
[19:08]  Zebediah Godwin: We could model it radically differently, but the human mind is more comfortable with what it knows
[19:08]  Ezekiel Castro: why is my existence here as beholden ot the linden as my rl is to the dollar
[19:08]  Rik Riel: don’t hate me because I’m pretty
[19:08]  Sarta Welinder: becaues RL drives it — LL needs tha’ money
[19:08]  Juliet Zuhrah: Pretty and green.
[19:08]  Ezekiel Castro: and i guess zeb, my other question is whether we actually could model it differently under linden, good point sarta
[19:09]  Pebbles Hannya: But also because people want to exchange things here and in RL, and money is an efficient system of exchange?
[19:09]  Zebediah Godwin: We could have an "economy of abundance" here, but not enough people know about it
[19:09]  Zebediah Godwin: Too used to the RL economy of scarcity
[19:09]  Sarta Welinder: could also open it up like the Web — and use paypal for everything
[19:09]  Sarta Welinder: anyone who wants to set up a server can
[19:10]  Juliet Zuhrah: What do you mean, Zeb. My house is free, my clothes are primarily free. Okay, I paid for the shoes and the skin…
[19:10]  Juliet Zuhrah: and the hair.
[19:10]  Sushma Sixgallery: just like rl, eh?
[19:10]  Juliet Zuhrah: But there is a lot of free stuff here and people are very generous.
[19:10]  Juliet Zuhrah: Well, I earned my skin RL….
[19:10]  Zebediah Godwin: In an economy of abundance, you gain prestige for giving things away. A lot of the early Internet was like that
[19:11]  Zebediah Godwin: And there is a lot of that here too
[19:11]  Sarta Welinder: everything but land is free — everyone has the tools to make all else
[19:11]  Zebediah Godwin: And yet, somehow good old capitalism slithers into Eden 🙂
[19:12]  Sarta Welinder: of course, one’s time has value
[19:12]  Wanderer Eberlain: There are more malls here than New Jersey
[19:12]  Ezekiel Castro: in rl, if i was poor and landless in brazil i could go and take over a plot of land and while i may have to fight off police and landowner, can i do that here under the linden gods?
[19:12]  Friendly Story: they smelled mmoney
[19:12]  Sarta Welinder: Karl Marx once said that goods only have two values — labor and raw costs
[19:12]  Sarta Welinder: here there are no raw costs
[19:12]  Juliet Zuhrah: Doesn’t land translate into computer space?
[19:12]  Sarta Welinder: and no production costs
[19:12]  Sarta Welinder: yes
[19:13]  Ezekiel Castro: sarta, i think there are raw costs
[19:13]  Sarta Welinder: only textures
[19:13]  Zebediah Godwin: That’s why islands are so expensive – you’re paying for the server it runs on
[19:13]  Sarta Welinder: there are no production costs
[19:13]  Sarta Welinder: there are no distribution costs
[19:13]  Pebbles Hannya: But there are definitely labor costs, as you’ve metioned Sarta.
[19:13]  Juliet Zuhrah: Not for individuals.
[19:14]  Sarta Welinder: you are paying only for labor and creative labor at that
[19:14]  Zebediah Godwin: So there are some aspects of this reality that are tied back to physical reality. Server space.
[19:14]  Juliet Zuhrah: But for the grid maintenence, etc.
[19:14]  Sarta Welinder: server upkeep more than space over time
[19:14]  Sarta Welinder: physical servers are great write offs
[19:14]  Zebediah Godwin: Right. Skilled labor to maintain the servers
[19:14]  Ezekiel Castro: i think it’s an important point zeb makes, the physical server is key
[19:15]  Juliet Zuhrah: What you really don’t have here much is a service industry…waiters, salespeople in shops, that sort of thing.
[19:15]  Wanderer Eberlain: There’s no real need for them
[19:15]  Zebediah Godwin: Service is far less common here. I’ve seen a few salespeople in shops, but most shops are fully automated
[19:15]  Ezekiel Castro: so many strippers, escorts, etc. are these people choosing these roles are they rl people being payed a pittance to  be these people
[19:16]  Wanderer Eberlain: I have a friend who’s been to a full service restaurant
[19:16]  buridan Simon: you could never recompense labor costs
[19:16]  Juliet Zuhrah: Yes. How much does an escort make here?
[19:16]  Scope Cleaver: Is it still in existence Wanderer?
[19:16]  Zebediah Godwin: Might be a vision of our own future in RL. As service industries become automated, that whole sector may dry up.
[19:17]  Sarta Welinder: the service sector isn’t going anywhere
[19:17]  Ezekiel Castro: i still am curious though, who does operate the escorts, strippers, etc?
[19:17]  Wanderer Eberlain: Yeah, they just went there a couple days ago, but they’ve been up for a while, apparently
[19:17]  Ezekiel Castro: i imagine an underpaid sex worker, just like in online chat spaces, etc
[19:17]  Farley Scarborough: /thanks for the stimulating discussion, everyone.
[19:17]  Sarta Welinder: take care Farley
[19:18]  Zebediah Godwin: Funny – I saw an ad here looking to hire a "virtual chef" to create meals
[19:18]  Ezekiel Castro: exploitation of third world people, still happens in sl, is this true statement?
[19:18]  Zebediah Godwin: Thanks for coming Farley!
[19:18]  Wanderer Eberlain: I’ve seen people starting up nanny agencies
[19:18]  Sarta Welinder: sure, ask Ashe
[19:18]  Pebbles Hannya: This has been really interesting, but I need to take my RL dog for a walk (no immersion for me I guess). Bye everyone.
[19:18]  Juliet Zuhrah: How is that possible? Nanny agencies?
[19:18]  Wanderer Eberlain: People have prim babies
[19:18]  Wanderer Eberlain: And people RP as children of other people.
[19:19]  buridan Simon: poor puppie needs some fresh air
[19:19]  Zebediah Godwin: Now THAT’s immersionist 🙂
[19:19]  Wanderer Eberlain: You hire someone to take care of your automated baby, or to go RP taking care of your children
[19:19]  Juliet Zuhrah: So you put your prim baby in it’s prim bed and turn off the computer, and it’s there when you come back.
[19:19]  Wanderer Eberlain: I know someone who plays a child. They have a scripted diaper that soils and then they need someone else to clean them up by clicking a bunch of times
[19:19]  Friendly Story: humm
[19:19]  Sarta Welinder: yes, but when you are out clubbing, where’s
your baby? Home alone?
[19:20]  Zebediah Godwin: (do automated babies barf in their
cribs?)
[19:20]  Wanderer Eberlain: Yeah, I figured the babysitter was called the inventory
[19:20]  Nicolas Wigner: More news for the police blotter
[19:20]  Juliet Zuhrah: Thanks, Wanderer!
[19:20]  Zebediah Godwin: Now my head hurts 🙂
[19:20]  Nicolas Wigner: deadbeat parents leave baby home alone…go clubbing
[19:20]  Fritz Bohemia: good evening to everyone
[19:20]  Wanderer Eberlain: The service industry depends on RP
[19:20]  Wanderer Eberlain: For the most part
[19:20]  Sarta Welinder: not at all
[19:21]  Zebediah Godwin: Thanks for coming here Fritz!
[19:21]  Sarta Welinder: teachers that teach classes are service indusry
[19:21]  Sarta Welinder: so are greeters at the various libraries
[19:21]  Friendly Story: true
[19:21]  Fritz Bohemia: you are mostly welcome
[19:21]  Juliet Zuhrah: True.
[19:21]  Wanderer Eberlain: Well, I mean things like restaurant operators and stuff like that nanny agency
[19:21]  Zebediah Godwin: Scripting mentors can be seen as service industry too
[19:21]  Sarta Welinder: so are the RN’s and medical librarians that answer real world questions at the SL Medical library
[19:22]  Fritz Bohemia: what are we discussing?
[19:22]  Sarta Welinder: so are the guides in the newbie zones
[19:22]  Wanderer Eberlain: Things that aren’t needed here in second life but we make them here to paralelle our reality world existance
[19:22]  Sarta Welinder: as are many liasons
[19:22]  Juliet Zuhrah: But that’s not strictly SL, then. RL nurses deal with RL diseases.
[19:22]  Zebediah Godwin: SL reality vs. real-life reality.
[19:22]  Fritz Bohemia: like what?
[19:22]  Sushma Sixgallery: i wonder if there will be new virii conceived in cyberspace?
[19:22]  Wanderer Eberlain: I’ve also seen people offering therapy here [19:22]  Sarta Welinder: they are still providing a service within SL
[19:22]  Sarta Welinder: one that could be duplicated in RL — but they are offering it here
[19:23]  Wanderer Eberlain: Well, the therapy was just an added thought
[19:23]  Juliet Zuhrah: Yes, but nothing similar to taking care of prim babies and serving SL drinks.
[19:23]  Sarta Welinder: there are therapy sessions offered here as well
[19:23]  Juliet Zuhrah: Therapy would be a very cool idea here.
[19:23]  Sarta Welinder: the anti-depression group does quite well
[19:23]  Zebediah Godwin: There’s an interesting bunch of virtual DJs that spin music for clubs
[19:24]  Rik Riel: there’s a design firm that will create a logo for your RW or SL biz
[19:24]  Fritz Bohemia: i went to a party yesterday with trance music,
very nice
[19:24]  Ezekiel Castro: if you think of sl personalities as extenstion or dimensions of rl personality, then therapy makes lots of sense
[19:24]  Wanderer Eberlain: I think that offering therapy through the internet is an interesting idea
[19:24]  buridan Simon: yep…. that happen.s
[19:24]  Ezekiel Castro: sherry turkle writes about MUD as therapy often
[19:24]  Fritz Bohemia: any forum to discuss quantum physics?
[19:24]  Zebediah Godwin: And there are some unique service jobs here too. Never seen a RL job where I can get paid for just sitting there. 🙂
[19:24]  Wanderer Eberlain: It requires a lot of trust
[19:24]  Sarta Welinder: especially if one is restricted by physical impairment or remoteness and cannot make it to a rl group therapy session
[19:25]  Ezekiel Castro: good point sarta
[19:25]  Fritz Bohemia: alguam ai fala portugues?
[19:25]  Zebediah Godwin: Sure, Fritz! If you have something to say about it, please do!
[19:25]  Wanderer Eberlain: Or if you can’t afford real therapy but can cough up the per hour in lindens?
[19:25]  Juliet Zuhrah: I’m just having a helluva time finding political or social research groups.
[19:25]  Delia Lake: a rl therapist told me that in some cases, immersive technologies are helpful for people trying to change how they relate to other people
[19:25]  buridan Simon: having a hard time finding research groups?
[19:25]  Rik Riel: Disculpe, nao, Fritz.
[19:25]  buridan Simon: what do you mean by research?
[19:26]  buridan Simon: for a dissertation or?
[19:26]  Fritz Bohemia: its just amazing what scientists have discovered about quantum physics and how it creates our reality
[19:26]  Juliet Zuhrah: Social research, political science, mass communication.
[19:26]  Juliet Zuhrah: That sort of thing.
[19:26]  Ezekiel Castro: so, that’s interesting we seek therapy to repair or rl problems so that we can continue to perpetrate capitalism in sl
[19:26]  Juliet Zuhrah: Sorry to hijack.
[19:26]  Ezekiel Castro: in a healthy way…
[19:26]  buridan Simon: try http://www.aoir.org
[19:26]  Sarta Welinder: there’s also an island completely devoted to
helping people with Asperger’s Disorder, helping them learn how to
socialize or become more comfortable with it
[19:26]  buridan Simon: or http://www.digra.org
[19:28]  Fritz Bohemia: any one into quantum mechanics?
[19:28]  Sushma Sixgallery is Online
[19:28]  Ezekiel Castro: where will the transcripts of tonights talk be?
[19:28]  Zebediah Godwin: Not much, Fritz. I know a bit about it, but I’m not all that conversant with it
[19:28]  Juliet Zuhrah: Yes, good question.
[19:29]  Zebediah Godwin: Unfortunately, my chat recorder crashed early on.
[19:29]  Zebediah Godwin: So there’s no official transcript. Sorry about that
[19:29]  Sarta Welinder: you can go into history and cust and paste what was said
[19:29]  Ezekiel Castro: bummer… anyone taking minutes?
[19:29]  Sarta Welinder: cut and paste that is
[19:29]  Rik Riel: me too
[19:29]  Zebediah Godwin: I’ll try to do that. 🙂
[19:29]  Zebediah Godwin: Oh good, it’s all there.
[19:30]  Zebediah Godwin: So if anyoine DOESN"T want their comments in
the transcript, IM me and I’ll edit them out
[19:30]  Zebediah Godwin: and my spelling is deteriorating fast 🙂
[19:30]  Sarta Welinder: any idea if an effort will be made to continue this, perhaps with more focus?
[19:30]  Ezekiel Castro: how often do these forums take place?
[19:31]  Zebediah Godwin: Anyway, we’re about at the end of our scheduled time, but I’m willing to continue as long as people like
[19:31]  Ezekiel Castro: good call sarta
[19:31]  Sushma Sixgallery: thank you
[19:31]  Zebediah Godwin: This is the first one of these, so I don’t have a firm schedule yet
[19:31]  Ezekiel Castro: focused discussions could be good
[19:31]  Fritz Bohemia: you look all so great. I am happy to see all your creativity!
[19:31]  Scope Cleaver: Good evening everyone.
[19:31]  Zebediah Godwin: Hopefully I’ll have them about once a week.
[19:31]  Zebediah Godwin: Turnout far exceeded what I expected – thanks all for coming!
[19:31]  Sera Lok: thank you Zebediah 🙂
[19:32]  Delia Lake: thanks for hosting, Zeb
[19:32]  Sarta Welinder: yup — thanks
[19:32]  Zebediah Godwin: It’s been a very stimulating conversation.
[19:32]  Friendly Story: yes thank you for moderating this discussion
[19:32]  Zebediah Godwin: I’m one of those weird people who likes philosophical conversations 🙂
[19:32]  Juliet Zuhrah: Thanks, everyone, esp Zeb. Goodnight!
[19:32]  Fritz Bohemia: Acolyte?
[19:32]  Friendly Story: smiles, then we are all weird, those of us who attended
[19:32]
  Zebediah Godwin: Thanks to all of you for contributing. It’s challenged a few of my assumptions about reality
[19:33]  Zebediah Godwin: It’s the standard title for the Aztecha group, which owns this space
[19:33]  Zebediah Godwin: Something Prokofy Neva came up with. (Say what you like about Prokofy, he/she does rent some nice spaces)
[19:34]  Fritz Bohemia: good night to everyone
[19:34]  Zebediah Godwin: So anyway, with the turnout this good, I hope to schecule another one of these events soon
[19:34]  Fritz Bohemia: it was a pleasure to meet you all
[19:34]  Rik Riel: thanks for hosting us Zeb
[19:34]  Zebediah Godwin: Good night everyone, and thanks 🙂
[19:34]  Ezekiel Castro: good night everyone, enjoyed it
[19:34]  Fritz Bohemia: how do we find out about future meetings?
[19:34]  Rik Riel: I’ll post my thoughts on this at rikomatic.com
[19:35]  Zebediah Godwin: I’ll post the meeting announcments under the "discussion" events
[19:35]  Zebediah Godwin: I may also create a group for the announcements. IM me sometime in the next couple days after I have things figured out